Incidentally

[davv]

I think the utility function that tells you the least about the person having it, is: "act in such a way as to maximize the ways you can change the world later"[1]. Lots of utility functions could incorporate this one as a subordinate goal, because one possible way to get where you want is to acquire enough of that which lets you change the world, and then use it.

I wonder if there's a turnpike theorem for utility :)

People (critters, AIs) holding this function would act naturally - if singlemindedly - up until the point where they're going to cash in their figurative chips. Then they would be like movie killer robots who manage to rid the world of mankind: "Okay, we won. Now what?".

[1] Or formally speaking: "act as to maximize the number of different states you can have the world assume at some later point".

Comments

[lhexa]

*grins* In the jargon of alternative rock, this maximizing activity is called "The Way". I think the notion is that Daoism was introduced to America in the fifties and sixties, and then immediately abused by the power-hungry. Two representative lyrics from the Red Hot Chili Peppers are, "By the way, I tried to say I know you from before." and "Several on the way. Nothing stops the ache..."

[davv]

That term sounded so general, I was a bit wary of it being a fool. I'm going to assume it isn't, though :)

That's interesting. I more or less considered the maximizing activity a very formal way of saying "acquire power", whether that power be physical, social, or something else; in any event, something raw and brute, the kind of thing you'd see associated with a western dragon.

But now that I think about what you said, you could also see it at that which you'd store to make later effortless action effortless. I guess I've considered wu wei of Taoism to be more an efficiency thing than a power thing: that the ideal is to be so close to the nature of reality that when you act, you add no more entropy than you absolutely have to. But if your utility function is to acquire generalized power (engage in "the way" that you mention), you would try to not waste too much of that power in your pursuit of more, either...

[lhexa]

No, I'm quite serious! Alternative rock developed a consistent, albeit subdued, opposition to certain Eastern religious techniques. Another example is Bush's, "Everything Zen? Everything Zen? I don't think so."

I vaguely recall that the later history of Daoism started to distinguish between good and bad uses of The Way (presaged by the founding book's "The way that can be followed is not the true way") -- one of which was living harmoniously, the other of which was, as you put it, waiting to cash one's chips in. And, as you say, a more canny power-broker would strive for maximum efficiency, which would for a time be achieved by following a path of harmony.

[lhexa]

Also, I'm suddenly reminded of Bob Page from Deus Ex. :)

[davv]

Already I am more than human!

People tend to find things to use their power on - being able to alter the state of the world isn't their ultimate goal. That said, Bob Page never really did show what he was going to do after ascending to godhood through technology.

[lhexa]

Actually, I think he did -- all the way at the beginning of the game, in the first cutscene, he talks about building Augustine's "City of God". I'm not altogether sure what that ambition entails, though...

[davv]

That would be:

Bob Page: We've had to endure much, you and I, but soon there will be order again, a new age. Aquinas spoke of the mythical City on the Hills. Soon that city will be a reality, and we will be crowned its kings. Or better than kings. Gods.

It looks like the ascension to godhood is still his big thing, but you're right too. It also suggests he wants to build a new order: one completely based on the new gods, yes, but still providing the things that the Illuminati did.

[lhexa]

That was it! I also recall the cemetery level revealing important information about Page's character, but again, I lack the specifics.

[davv]

It seems to just say he was more the organizational type than the contemplative one, and that he was rash and impatient; ambitious without the required responsibility.